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Traité Menachot

28b

Étude de Menachot 28b

Étude de la Guémara 28b

Guémara
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : that Moses fashioned were fit for his generation and were fit for future generations. Yet the trumpets that Moses fashioned were fit for his generation but were unfit for future generations.
שֶׁעָשָׂה מֹשֶׁה, כְּשֵׁרִים לוֹ וּכְשֵׁרִים לְדוֹרוֹת. חֲצוֹצְרוֹת, כְּשֵׁרוֹת לוֹ וּפְסוּלוֹת לְדוֹרוֹת.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara asks: What is the reason that the trumpets were unfit for future generations? If we say that it is because the verse states: “Make for you two silver trumpets” (Numbers 10:2), meaning that they are fit for you, but not for future generations, that is difficult; if that is so, then the verse: “Make for you an Ark of wood” (Deuteronomy 10:1), should also teach that the Ark is fit only for you, but not for future generations. This cannot be the halakha, as the baraita stated explicitly that all vessels, other than the trumpets, that were fashioned by Moses were fit for future generations.
חֲצוֹצְרוֹת מַאי טַעְמָא? אִילֵימָא דְּאָמַר קְרָא ״עֲשֵׂה לְךָ״, לְךָ וְלֹא לְדוֹרוֹת, אֶלָּא מֵעַתָּה ״וְעָשִׂיתָ לְּךָ אֲרוֹן עֵץ״, הָכִי נָמֵי דִּלְךָ וְלֹא לְדוֹרוֹת?
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rather, the term “for you” that is written with regard to the fashioning of the Ark should be understood either according to the one who says that “for you” means from your own property, or according to the one who says that God said to Moses: I desire, as it were, that the Ark be fashioned from your property more than I desire that it be fashioned from the property of the rest of the nation (see Yoma 3b). Accordingly, here too, with regard to the trumpets, the term “for you” should be understood in this manner. The Gemara responds: There, with regard to the trumpets, it is different, as the verse states “for you” twice: “Make for you two trumpets of silver, of beaten work you shall make them, and they shall be for you for the calling of the congregation” (Numbers 10:2).
אֶלָּא, אִי לְמַאן דְּאָמַר: ״לְךָ״ – מִשֶּׁלְּךָ, אִי לְמַאן דְּאָמַר: כִּבְיָכוֹל בְּשֶׁלְּךָ אֲנִי רוֹצֶה יוֹתֵר מִשֶּׁלָּהֶם, הַאי נָמֵי מִיבְּעֵי לֵיהּ לְהָכִי. שָׁאנֵי הָתָם, דְּאָמַר קְרָא ״לְךָ״ ״לְךָ״ תְּרֵי זִימְנֵי: ״עֲשֵׂה לְךָ״ ״וְהָיוּ לְךָ״.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : § The Gemara relates: Rav Pappa, son of Rav Ḥanin, taught a baraita before Rav Yosef: The Candelabrum could be fashioned from a complete block and from gold. If one fashioned it from silver, it is fit. If one fashioned it from tin, or from lead, or from other types of metal [gisteron], Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi deems it unfit, and Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, deems it fit. If one fashioned it from wood, or from bone, or from glass, everyone agrees that it is unfit.
תָּנֵי רַב פָּפָּא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב חָנִין קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב יוֹסֵף: מְנוֹרָה הָיְתָה בָּאָה מִן הָעֶשֶׁת מִן הַזָּהָב, עֲשָׂאָהּ שֶׁל כֶּסֶף – כְּשֵׁרָה, שֶׁל בַּעַץ וְשֶׁל אֲבָר וְשֶׁל גִּיסְטְרוֹן – רַבִּי פּוֹסֵל וְרַבִּי יוֹסֵי בְּרַבִּי יְהוּדָה מַכְשִׁיר, שֶׁל עֵץ וְשֶׁל עֶצֶם וְשֶׁל זְכוּכִית – דִּבְרֵי הַכֹּל פְּסוּלָה.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rav Yosef said to him: What, in your opinion, is the explanation of the dispute between Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi and Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda? Rav Pappa, son of Rav Ḥanin, said to him: Both this Sage and that Sage interpret the verse: “And you will make a Candelabrum of pure gold; of beaten work will the Candelabrum be made” (Exodus 25:31), by means of the principle of generalizations and details. The verse begins with a generalization: “And you will make a Candelabrum,” followed by a detail: “Of pure gold,” which is then followed by a generalization: “Will the Candelabrum be made.” According to the hermeneutic principle of generalizations and details, this teaches that any item that is similar to the detail is also deemed fit.
אֲמַר לֵיהּ: מַאי דַּעְתָּךְ? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: בֵּין מָר וּבֵין מָר כְּלָלֵי וּפְרָטֵי דָּרְשִׁי.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : But one Sage, Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, holds that just as the item mentioned in the detail is clearly defined as a type of metal, so too, all other types of metal may be used in fashioning the Candelabrum. And one Sage, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, holds that just as the item mentioned in the detail is clearly defined as an item of substantial value, so too, all items of substantial value may be used in fashioning the Candelabrum. Rav Yosef said to him: Remove your baraita in light of my baraita.
מִיהוּ, מָר סָבַר: מָה הַפְּרָט מְפוֹרָשׁ שֶׁל מַתֶּכֶת – אַף כֹּל שֶׁל מַתֶּכֶת, וּמָר סָבַר: מָה הַפְּרָט מְפוֹרָשׁ דָּבָר חָשׁוּב – אַף כׇּל דָּבָר חָשׁוּב. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: סְמִי דִּידָךְ מִקַּמֵּי דִּידִי.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rav Yosef continued: As it is taught in a baraita: With regard to Temple service vessels that one fashioned from wood, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi deems them unfit and Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, deems them fit. According to this baraita, their dispute was with regard to a Candelabrum fashioned from wood, not from metal. Rav Yosef explains: With regard to what principle do they disagree? Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi interprets verses by means of the principle of generalizations and details, and Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, interprets verses by means of the principle of amplifications and restrictions.
דְּתַנְיָא: כְּלֵי שָׁרֵת שֶׁעֲשָׂאָן שֶׁל עֵץ, רַבִּי פּוֹסֵל, וְרַבִּי יוֹסֵי בְּרַבִּי יְהוּדָה מַכְשִׁיר. בְּמַאי קָא מִיפַּלְגִי? רַבִּי דָּרֵישׁ כְּלָלֵי וּפְרָטֵי, וְרַבִּי יוֹסֵי בְּרַבִּי יְהוּדָה דָּרֵישׁ רִיבּוּיֵי וּמִיעוּטֵי.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi interprets the verse: “And you will make a Candelabrum of pure gold; of beaten work will the Candelabrum be made” (Exodus 25:31), by means of the principle of generalizations and details. “And you will make a Candelabrum of” is a generalization, as the material of the Candelabrum is not specified; “pure gold” is a detail, limiting the material exclusively to gold; and by then stating: “Of beaten work will the Candelabrum be made,” the verse then makes a generalization. The result is a generalization and a detail and a generalization, from which you may deduce that the verse is referring only to items similar to the detail, leading to this conclusion: Just as the item mentioned in the detail is clearly defined as a type of metal, so too, all other types of metal may be used in fashioning the Candelabrum.
רַבִּי דָּרֵישׁ כְּלָלֵי וּפְרָטֵי, ״וְעָשִׂיתָ מְנֹרַת״ – כָּלַל, ״זָהָב טָהוֹר״ – פָּרַט, ״מִקְשָׁה תֵּיעָשֶׂה הַמְּנוֹרָה״ – חָזַר וְכָלַל, כְּלָל וּפְרָט וּכְלָל, אִי אַתָּה דָן אֶלָּא כְּעֵין הַפְּרָט: מָה הַפְּרָט מְפוֹרָשׁ שֶׁל מַתֶּכֶת, אַף כֹּל שֶׁל מַתֶּכֶת.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : By contrast, Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, interprets the verse by means of the principle of amplifications and restrictions. “And you will make a Candelabrum of” is an amplification, as the material of the Candelabrum is not specified; “pure gold” is a restriction, limiting the material exclusively to gold; and by then stating: “Of beaten work will the Candelabrum be made,” the verse repeated and amplified. There is a hermeneutical principle that when a verse amplified and then restricted and then amplified, it amplified the relevant category to include everything except the specific matter excluded in the restriction. And what did the verse include? It includes all materials, even wood. And what did the verse exclude with this restriction? It excluded a Candelabrum fashioned from earthenware, which is furthest in quality from gold.
רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בְּרַבִּי יְהוּדָה דָּרֵישׁ רִיבּוּיֵי וּמִיעוּטֵי: ״וְעָשִׂיתָ מְנוֹרַת״ – רִיבָּה, ״זָהָב טָהוֹר״ – מִיעֵט, ״מִקְשָׁה תֵּיעָשֶׂה הַמְּנוֹרָה״ – חָזַר וְרִיבָּה. רִיבָּה וּמִיעֵט וְרִיבָּה – רִיבָּה הַכֹּל, וּמַאי רַבִּי? רַבִּי כֹּל מִילֵּי, וּמַאי מַיעֵט? מַיעֵט שֶׁל חֶרֶס.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rav Pappa, son of Rav Ḥanin, said to him: On the contrary, remove your baraita in light of my baraita. Rav Yosef responded: That cannot enter your mind, as it is taught in another baraita: If the one who is fashioning the Candelabrum has no gold, he may bring even a Candelabrum made of silver, of copper, of iron, of tin, or of lead. Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, deems it fit even if it was fashioned from wood. It is evident from this baraita that the dispute pertains only to a Candelabrum fashioned from wood, and Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi agrees that it may be fashioned from other types of metal.
אַדְּרַבָּה, סְמִי דִּידָךְ מִקַּמֵּי דִּידִי! לָא סָלְקָא דַּעְתָּךְ, דְּתַנְיָא: אֵין לוֹ זָהָב מֵבִיא אַף שֶׁל כֶּסֶף, שֶׁל נְחֹשֶׁת, שֶׁל בַּרְזֶל, וְשֶׁל בְּדִיל, וְשֶׁל עוֹפֶרֶת. רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בְּרַבִּי יְהוּדָה מַכְשִׁיר אַף בְּשֶׁל עֵץ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : And it is taught in another baraita: A person may not construct a house in the exact form of the Sanctuary, nor a portico [akhsadra] corresponding to the Entrance Hall of the Sanctuary, nor a courtyard corresponding to the Temple courtyard, nor a table corresponding to the Table in the Temple, nor a candelabrum corresponding to the Candelabrum in the Temple. But one may fashion a candelabrum of five or of six or of eight branches. And one may not fashion a candelabrum of seven branches, and this is the halakha even if he constructs it from other kinds of metal rather than gold, since the Candelabrum used in the Temple may be fashioned from other metals.
וְתַנְיָא אִידַּךְ: לֹא יַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בַּיִת תַּבְנִית הֵיכָל, אַכְסַדְרָה כְּנֶגֶד אוּלָם, חָצֵר כְּנֶגֶד עֲזָרָה, שֻׁלְחָן כְּנֶגֶד שֻׁלְחָן, מְנוֹרָה כְּנֶגֶד מְנוֹרָה, אֲבָל עוֹשֶׂה הוּא שֶׁל חֲמִשָּׁה וְשֶׁל שִׁשָּׁה וְשֶׁל שְׁמֹנָה, וְשֶׁל שִׁבְעָה לֹא יַעֲשֶׂה, וַאֲפִילּוּ מִשְּׁאָר מִינֵי מַתָּכוֹת.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The baraita continues: Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, says: One may not even fashion a candelabrum from wood, in the manner that the kings of the Hasmonean monarchy did in the Temple. The Candelabrum used in the Temple in the time of the Hasmonean kings was fashioned from wood. The Rabbis said to Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda: You seek to bring a proof from there? In the time of the Hasmoneans the Candelabrum was not fashioned from wood but from spits [shappudim] of iron, and they covered them with tin. Later, when they grew richer and could afford to fashion a Candelabrum of higher-quality material, they fashioned the Candelabrum from silver. When they again grew richer, they fashioned the Candelabrum from gold.
רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בַּר רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: אַף שֶׁל עֵץ לֹא יַעֲשֶׂה, כְּדֶרֶךְ שֶׁעָשׂוּ מַלְכֵי בֵּית חַשְׁמוֹנַאי. אָמְרוּ לוֹ: מִשָּׁם רְאָיָה? שַׁפּוּדִים שֶׁל בַּרְזֶל הָיוּ, וְחִיפּוּם בְּבַעַץ. הֶעֱשִׁירוּ – עֲשָׂאוּם שֶׁל כֶּסֶף, חָזְרוּ וְהֶעֱשִׁירוּ – עֲשָׂאוּם שֶׁל זָהָב.
Menachot 28b
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