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Traité Niddah

8b

Étude de Niddah 8b

Étude de la Guémara 8b

Guémara
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara asks: But wasn’t Rabbi Eliezer much older than Rabbi Ḥanina ben Gamliel? How could Rabbi Eliezer have cited the opinion of Rabbi Ḥanina ben Gamliel? The Gemara answers: Rather, the reason Rabbi Elazar ruled that the halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer in that case was because Rabbi Ḥanina ben Gamliel held in accordance with his opinion.
וְהָא קַשִּׁישׁ מִינֵּיהּ טוּבָא! אֶלָּא מִשּׁוּם דְּקָאֵי רַבִּי חֲנִינָא בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל בְּשִׁיטְתֵיהּ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : And does Rabbi Ḥanina ben Gamliel really hold in accordance with Rabbi Eliezer’s opinion? But isn’t it taught in a baraita: On the night of Yom Kippur, one prays seven blessings in the Amida prayer and confesses; in the morning prayer, one prays seven blessings and confesses; in the additional prayer, one prays seven blessings and confesses; in the afternoon prayer, one prays seven blessings and confesses; and in the ne’ila prayer, one also prays seven blessings and confesses. For the evening prayer at the conclusion of Yom Kippur, one prays seven blessings in an abridged version of the eighteen blessings of the weekday Amida prayer. One recites the first three blessings, the final three, and a middle blessing that includes an abbreviated form of the other weekday blessings.
וּמִי קָאֵי? וְהָתַנְיָא: אוֹר יוֹם הַכִּפּוּרִים — מִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁבַע וּמִתְוַדֶּה, שַׁחֲרִית — מִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁבַע וּמִתְוַדֶּה, מוּסָף — מִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁבַע וּמִתְוַדֶּה, מִנְחָה — מִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁבַע וּמִתְוַדֶּה, בִּנְעִילָה — מִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁבַע וּמִתְוַדֶּה, בְּעַרְבִית — מִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁבַע מֵעֵין שְׁמֹנֶה עֶשְׂרֵה.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rabbi Ḥanina ben Gamliel says in the name of his forefathers: One recites the complete eighteen blessings, due to the fact that he is required to recite havdala in the fourth blessing of the Amida: Who graciously grants knowledge. Havdala cannot be inserted into the abridged version. Evidently, Rabbi Ḥanina ben Gamliel does not agree with Rabbi Eliezer’s ruling that one recites havdala in the blessing of thanksgiving, one of the final three blessings of the Amida prayer. Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak says in explanation: Rabbi Ḥanina ben Gamliel said this opinion in the name of his forefathers, but he himself does not hold accordingly.
רַבִּי חֲנִינָא בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל מִשּׁוּם אֲבוֹתָיו אוֹמֵר: מִתְפַּלֵּל שְׁמֹנֶה עֶשְׂרֵה, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁצָּרִיךְ לוֹמַר הַבְדָּלָה בְּ״חוֹנֵן הַדָּעַת״. אָמַר רַב נַחְמָן בַּר יִצְחָק: אִיהוּ אָמַר מִשּׁוּם אֲבוֹתָיו, וְלֵיהּ לָא סְבִירָא לֵיהּ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : § Earlier, Rabbi Zeira questioned the claim of Rabbi Pedat, son of Rabbi Eliezer, that the Sage who holds that balsam is considered to be fruit and therefore has the sanctity of the Sabbatical Year is Rabbi Eliezer. Rabbi Yirmeya said to Rabbi Zeira: And you? Do you not hold that the tanna who taught that balsam sap has the status of fruit is Rabbi Eliezer? As, didn’t we learn in a mishna (Orla 1:7) that Rabbi Eliezer says: With regard to one who curdles cheese in the sap of orla, the cheese is prohibited, as the sap is considered to be fruit of the tree.
אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַבִּי יִרְמְיָה לְרַבִּי זֵירָא: וְאַתְּ לָא תִּסְבְּרַאּ דְּמַאן תְּנָא קִטְפָא פֵּירָא רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר הוּא? וְהָתְנַן: רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר: הַמַּעֲמִיד בִּשְׂרַף עָרְלָה אָסוּר!
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara answers: You may even say that the mishna that deals with balsam is in accordance with the opinion of the Rabbis. As the Rabbis disagree with Rabbi Eliezer only with regard to the sap of the tree, but in the case of the sap of the fruit they agree with him. As we learned in a mishna (Orla 1:7) that Rabbi Yehoshua said: I heard explicitly that in the case of one who curdles cheese in the sap of the leaves or the sap of the roots of an orla tree, the cheese is permitted. But if it is curdled in the sap of unripe figs it is prohibited, because that sap is considered to be fruit.
אֲפִילּוּ תֵּימָא רַבָּנַן, עַד כָּאן לָא פְּלִיגִי רַבָּנַן עֲלֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אֶלָּא בְּקִטְפָא דִּגְוָוזָא, אֲבָל בְּקִטְפָא דְּפֵירָא מוֹדוּ לֵיהּ, דִּתְנַן: אָמַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ: שָׁמַעְתִּי בְּפֵירוּשׁ שֶׁהַמַּעֲמִיד בִּשְׂרַף הֶעָלִין בִּשְׂרַף הָעִיקָּרִין מוּתָּר, בִּשְׂרַף הַפַּגִּין אָסוּר, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהוּא פֶּרִי.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : And if you wish, say instead: When the Rabbis disagree with Rabbi Eliezer, it is with regard to a tree that bears fruit. But in the case of a tree that does not bear fruit, they agree that its sap is considered to be its fruit. As we learned in a mishna (Shevi’it 7:6) that Rabbi Shimon says: The sanctity of the Sabbatical Year does not apply to sap. And the Rabbis say: The sanctity of the Sabbatical Year does apply to sap, because its sap is its fruit.
וְאִיבָּעֵית אֵימָא: כִּי פְּלִיגִי רַבָּנַן עֲלֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר — בְּאִילָן הָעוֹשֶׂה פֵּירוֹת, אֲבָל בְּאִילָן שֶׁאֵינוֹ עוֹשֶׂה פֵּירוֹת — מוֹדוּ דִּקְטָפוֹ זֶהוּ פִּרְיוֹ. דִּתְנַן: רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן אוֹמֵר: אֵין לַקְּטָף שְׁבִיעִית, וַחֲכָמִים אוֹמְרִים: יֵשׁ לַקְּטָף שְׁבִיעִית, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁקְּטָפוֹ זֶהוּ פִּרְיוֹ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara explains the proof: Who are these Rabbis? Are they not the Rabbis who disagree with Rabbi Eliezer? If so, this demonstrates that they agree in the case of a tree that does not bear fruit. The Gemara rejects this proof: A certain elder said to Rabbi Zeira that this is what Rabbi Yoḥanan says: Who are the Rabbis in this mishna? It is Rabbi Eliezer, who said that its sap is considered to be its fruit.
מַאן חֲכָמִים? לָאו רַבָּנַן דִּפְלִיגִי עֲלֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר? אֲמַר לֵיהּ הָהוּא סָבָא: הָכִי אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: מַאן חֲכָמִים? רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר, דְּאָמַר: קְטָפוֹ זֶהוּ פִּרְיוֹ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara asks: If it is the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer, why are they specifically discussing the case of a tree that does not bear fruit? Even in the case of a tree that does bear fruit, Rabbi Eliezer maintains that its sap is like its fruit. The Gemara answers: Rabbi Eliezer stated his opinion to them in accordance with the statement of the Rabbis themselves, as follows: According to my opinion, even with regard to a tree that bears fruit, its sap is also considered to be its fruit. But according to your opinion, you should at least agree with me in the case of a tree that does not bear fruit, that its sap is considered to be its fruit. And the Rabbis said in response to Rabbi Eliezer: It is no different. Sap is not considered fruit whether it comes from a fruit-bearing tree or a barren tree.
אִי רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר, מַאי אִירְיָא אִילָן שֶׁאֵינוֹ עוֹשֶׂה פְּרִי? אֲפִילּוּ אִילָן הָעוֹשֶׂה פְּרִי — קְטָפוֹ זֶהוּ פִּרְיוֹ! לְדִבְרֵיהֶם דְּרַבָּנַן קָאָמַר לְהוּ: לְדִידִי, אֲפִילּוּ אִילָן הָעוֹשֶׂה פֵּירוֹת נָמֵי — קְטָפוֹ זֶהוּ פִּרְיוֹ. לְדִידְכוּ, אוֹדוֹ לִי מִיהַת בְּאִילָן שֶׁאֵינוֹ עוֹשֶׂה פֵּירוֹת דִּקְטָפוֹ זֶהוּ פִּרְיוֹ. וְרַבָּנַן אָמְרִי לֵיהּ: לָא שְׁנָא.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : § The mishna teaches: Who is the woman characterized as a virgin in this context? It is any woman who did not see the flow of menstrual blood in all her days, even if she was married and experienced bleeding resulting from intercourse consummating her marriage. The Sages taught: If she was married and she saw a flow of blood due to her marriage, i.e., blood resulting from the tearing of her hymen; or if she gave birth and saw blood due to the birth, I still call her a virgin in this context. The reason is that when they said: Virgin here, they meant a menstrual blood virgin, i.e., one who did not yet see a menstrual flow, and not a hymen-blood virgin, i.e., one who did not experience bleeding from a torn hymen.
אֵיזוֹ הִיא בְּתוּלָה? כֹּל שֶׁלֹּא רָאֲתָה כּוּ׳. תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: נִשֵּׂאת וְרָאֲתָה דָּם מֵחֲמַת נִישּׂוּאִין, יָלְדָה וְרָאֲתָה דָּם מֵחֲמַת לֵידָה — עֲדַיִין אֲנִי קוֹרֵא לָהּ ״בְּתוּלָה״, שֶׁהֲרֵי ״בְּתוּלָה״ שֶׁאָמְרוּ — בְּתוּלַת דָּמִים, וְלֹא בְּתוּלַת בְּתוּלִים.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara asks: Is that so? But didn’t Rav Kahana say that a Sage taught: There are three types of virgins: A virgin human, virgin ground, and a virgin sycamore. A virgin human is a woman for as long as she has not engaged in intercourse. The relevance of this designation is that only a virgin is permitted to marry a High Priest (see Leviticus 21:13–14). Alternatively, the relevance is that her marriage contract is two hundred dinars, instead of the one hundred dinars in the marriage contract of a non-virgin.
אִינִי? וְהָאָמַר רַב כָּהֲנָא: תְּנָא, שָׁלֹשׁ בְּתוּלוֹת הֵן — בְּתוּלַת אָדָם, בְּתוּלַת קַרְקַע, בְּתוּלַת שִׁקְמָה. בְּתוּלַת אָדָם — כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁלֹּא נִבְעֲלָה, נָפְקָא מִינַּהּ לְכֹהֵן גָּדוֹל, אִי נָמֵי לִכְתוּבָּתָהּ מָאתַיִם.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Virgin ground is ground for as long as it has not been worked. The relevance of this designation is with regard to the rough dried-up stream mentioned in the Torah. When the corpse of a murder victim is found between two towns and the murderer is unknown, the Torah states that a heifer’s neck is broken in a place that was not worked. Alternatively, the relevance is with regard to buying and selling. If one stipulates that he is buying virgin land, it is defined as land that has never been worked.
בְּתוּלַת קַרְקַע — כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁלֹּא נֶעֶבְדָה. נָפְקָא מִינַּהּ לְנַחַל אֵיתָן, אִי נָמֵי לְמִקָּח וּמִמְכָּר.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Finally, a virgin sycamore is a sycamore for as long as it has not been felled, i.e., cut to promote growth. The relevance of this designation is with regard to buying and selling. If one stipulates that he is buying virgin sycamore, it is defined as one that has never been felled. Alternatively, the relevance is with regard to the prohibition against felling it in the Sabbatical Year, as we learned in a mishna: (Shevi’it 4:5): One may not fell a virgin sycamore in the Sabbatical Year, because it is considered work, as this promotes the growth of the tree. The Gemara explains its question: And if it is so, that there is a concept of a virgin from menstrual blood, let the tanna of this baraita also teach this type of virgin.
בְּתוּלַת שִׁקְמָה — כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁלֹּא נִקְצְצָה. נָפְקָא מִינַּהּ לְמִקָּח וּמִמְכָּר, אִי נָמֵי לְמִקְצְצַהּ בִּשְׁבִיעִית, כְּדִתְנַן: אֵין קוֹצְצִין בְּתוּלַת שִׁקְמָה בַּשְּׁבִיעִית מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהִיא עֲבוֹדָה. וְאִם אִיתָא, לִיתְנֵי נָמֵי הָא!
Niddah 8b
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