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Traité Niddah

60a

Étude de Niddah 60a

Étude de la Guémara 60a

Guémara
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : who is of age and already seeing a flow of menstrual blood, i.e., she has had a flow of menstrual blood.
הָרוֹאָה.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara explains: From where does Rav know that this is referring to a gentile woman who once experienced a flow of blood? He infers from the mishna that the gentile woman it mentions is similar to a menstruating woman: Just as a menstruating woman is one who sees, i.e., who has already experienced bleeding, so too, the mishna is referring to an adult gentile woman who already sees menstrual blood.
מִמַּאי? דּוּמְיָא דְּנִדָּה: מָה נִדָּה דְּקָחָזְיָא, אַף נׇכְרִית דְּקָא חָזְיָא.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rav Sheshet says: I say that when Rav was dozing or sleeping he said that halakha, i.e., it is an error. As it is taught in a baraita: If a woman loaned her garment to a gentile and subsequently found a blood stain on it, she attributes the stain to the gentile woman. This tanna deems it permitted for her to attribute the blood to any gentile woman, regardless of her age or her likelihood of bleeding. Rabbi Meir disagrees and says: This applies specifically to a gentile woman who is fit to see menstrual blood. And the Gemara adds that even Rabbi Meir says only that the gentile woman must be fit to see menstrual blood, but he too agrees that it is not necessary for her to be seeing blood at that time. She does not have to have actually experienced bleeding at some point.
אָמַר רַב שֵׁשֶׁת: כִּי נָיֵים וְשָׁכֵיב רַב אַמְרַהּ לְהָא שְׁמַעְתָּא. דְּתַנְיָא: תּוֹלָה בְּנׇכְרִית. רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר: בְּנׇכְרִית הָרְאוּיָה לִרְאוֹת. וַאֲפִילּוּ רַבִּי מֵאִיר לָא קָאָמַר אֶלָּא בִּרְאוּיָה לִרְאוֹת, אֲבָל רוֹאָה — לָא אִיצְטְרִיךְ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rava said in response to Rav Sheshet’s challenge: And how can you understand that Rabbi Meir is coming to be stringent? Rav Sheshet maintains that according to the first tanna of the baraita she can attribute the blood stain to any gentile, whereas Rabbi Meir rules stringently that she may attribute it only to a gentile who is fit to experience bleeding. This is incorrect, as Rabbi Meir is actually coming to be lenient. In other words, the first tanna is more stringent, as he deems it permitted for her to attribute the blood stain only to a gentile woman who had experienced a menstrual flow at least once. By contrast, Rabbi Meir rules that she may attribute the stain to a gentile woman who is old enough to experience bleeding, even if she has never experienced a menstrual flow.
אָמַר רָבָא: וְתִסְבְּרַאּ רַבִּי מֵאִיר לְחוּמְרָא? רַבִּי מֵאִיר לְקוּלָּא!
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara provides the reason for Rava’s opinion. As it is taught in a baraita: A woman who loaned her garment to a gentile woman and subsequently finds a blood stain on it may not attribute the stain to the gentile woman. Rabbi Meir says that she may attribute the blood stain to the gentile woman. But if so, the first baraita, which states that according to the first tanna she may attribute the blood stain to any gentile woman, is difficult. You must answer like this: According to the first tanna she may attribute the blood to any gentile woman provided that she sees, i.e., that she once experienced bleeding. By contrast, Rabbi Meir says a more lenient opinion, that she may attribute it to the gentile woman provided that she is fit to see menstrual blood, and this is the halakha even though she has not actually seen menstrual blood yet.
דְּתַנְיָא: אֵינָהּ תּוֹלָה בְּנׇכְרִית, רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר: תּוֹלָה. וְאֶלָּא קַשְׁיָא הָךְ! תָּרֵיץ הָכִי: וְהִיא שֶׁרוֹאָה. רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר: בִּרְאוּיָה לִרְאוֹת, וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵינָהּ רוֹאָה.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : § The Sages taught a baraita with regard to a woman who loaned her garment to another woman who was a lesser zava: The lender may attribute the blood stain on the loaned garment to a woman who observes a clean day for each day she experiences a discharge, if the blood is found on her second day, i.e., the day after she had a discharge, despite the fact that she does not have a presumptive status of seeing blood. It is nevertheless considered that her uterus is open and the likelihood is that she will experience bleeding.
תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: תּוֹלָה בְּשׁוֹמֶרֶת יוֹם כְּנֶגֶד יוֹם, בַּשֵּׁנִי שֶׁלָּהּ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : And likewise, she may also attribute the blood stain if she loaned her garment to a woman counting seven clean days who did not immerse in a ritual bath, and who will now have to count another seven clean days. Therefore, the status of the one who loaned the garment is fixed, and the status of the other woman is ruined and she must begin her counting again; this is the statement of Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi says: She may not attribute the blood flow to either of these women. Therefore, the statuses of both the woman who loaned the garment and the one who borrowed it are ruined, in that both women are deemed impure.
וּבְסוֹפֶרֶת שִׁבְעָה שֶׁלֹּא טָבְלָה, לְפִיכָךְ הִיא מְתוּקֶּנֶת וַחֲבֶרְתָּהּ מְקוּלְקֶלֶת, דִּבְרֵי רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל. רַבִּי אוֹמֵר: אֵינָהּ תּוֹלָה, לְפִיכָךְ שְׁתֵּיהֶן מְקוּלְקָלוֹת.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The baraita continues: And both Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi agree that a woman who lends her garment may attribute any blood stain found on it to a woman who observes a day for a day if it is on her first day of the discharge. In this case the status of the woman who borrowed the garment is no more ruined than it was already, as either way she can become pure on the following day.
וְשָׁוִין, שֶׁתּוֹלָה בְּשׁוֹמֶרֶת יוֹם כְּנֶגֶד יוֹם, בָּרִאשׁוֹן שֶׁלָּהּ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : And they also agree in a case where the woman who borrowed the garment was a woman after childbirth who is observing the period of the blood of purity. During these days, attributing the blood to her does not ruin her status, as any blood she emits is pure and does not affect her status. And similarly, the lender may attribute the blood stain to a virgin who engages in intercourse for the first time, as her blood is pure, as there is an assumption that it is hymenal bleeding rather than menstrual blood.
וּבְיוֹשֶׁבֶת עַל דַּם טוֹהַר, וּבִבְתוּלָה שֶׁדָּמֶיהָ טְהוֹרִין.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara asks: Why do I need the clause starting with: Therefore, mentioned by Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel? It is obvious that the status of only one woman is ruined, so what information does this observation add? The Gemara answers that this clause does not add any new information; rather, the baraita taught it because of the use of the similar clause beginning with: Therefore, stated by Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi in the latter part of the baraita.
״לְפִיכָךְ״ דְּרַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל — לְמָה לִי? מִשּׁוּם דְּרַבִּי.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara persists: But why do I need the clause starting with: Therefore, in the statement of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi? That too is apparently superfluous. The Gemara explains: It is necessary, lest you say that the status of the woman who has the blood stain found with her when she is wearing the garment, should be ruined, whereas the status of the other woman should not be ruined, as the garment was not with her when the blood stain was discovered. Therefore, the baraita teaches us the clause beginning with: Therefore, to stress that both women are impure.
״לְפִיכָךְ״ דְּרַבִּי — לְמָה לִי? מַהוּ דְּתֵימָא: הָהִיא דְּאִשְׁתְּכַח כֶּתֶם גַּבַּהּ — תִּתְקַלְקַל, אִידַּךְ — לֹא תִּתְקַלְקַל; קָמַשְׁמַע לַן.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : § With regard to the dispute between Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, Rav Ḥisda says: In a case of two individuals, one of whom was ritually impure and the other of whom was pure, who walked on two paths, one of which was pure and the other one impure due to a corpse buried there, and neither remembers which path he took, and afterward they handled items of ritual purity, e.g., the portion of produce designated for the priest [teruma] or consecrated items, we have arrived at the dispute between Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi and Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel. According to Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, if one of the two individuals was already impure it can be assumed that he was the one who walked along the ritually impure path, and the other individual remains pure. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi claims that there is no assumption that the one who was pure retains that state, as it is equally possible that he walked along the ritually impure path.
אָמַר רַב חִסְדָּא: טָמֵא וְטָהוֹר שֶׁהָלְכוּ בִּשְׁנֵי שְׁבִילִין, אֶחָד טָהוֹר וְאֶחָד טָמֵא — בָּאנוּ לְמַחְלוֹקֶת רַבִּי וְרַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל.
Niddah 60a
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