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Traité Menachot

9b

Étude de Menachot 9b

Étude de la Guémara 9b

Guémara
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Parenthetically, the Gemara asks: What is the mention of a meal offering doing here, in a baraita that discusses slaughtered offerings? There is no sprinkling in the case of a meal offering. Rav Pappa said: The baraita is referring to a meal offering that accompanies the libations brought with a slaughtered offering.
מִנְחָה מַאי עֲבִידְתֵּהּ? אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא: מִנְחַת נְסָכִים.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rav Pappa elaborates: It might enter your mind to say that since such a meal offering comes with a slaughtered offering, it is considered like the offering itself. Accordingly, if the only part remaining from an offering is the meal offering that is brought with it, perhaps it is considered as though part of the offering itself remains, and therefore the priest may sprinkle the offering’s blood on account of it. Therefore, the baraita teaches us that this is not the halakha. In any event, Rabbi Yehoshua states in this baraita that the blood of an offering is sprinkled if a minimum amount remains from it. The same should apply to the remainder of a regular meal offering.
סָלְקָא דַּעְתָּךְ אָמֵינָא: הוֹאִיל וּבַהֲדֵי זֶבַח אָתְיָא – כִּי גּוּפֵיהּ דְּזֶבַח דָּמְיָא, קָא מַשְׁמַע לַן.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rabbi Yoḥanan cited this baraita as proof that even according to Rabbi Yehoshua, if a portion of the remainder of a meal offering remains intact then the handful may be burned on account of it. The Gemara asks: And concerning the one who disqualifies the handful when the remainder is lacking, i.e., Reish Lakish, how does he explain the opinion of Rabbi Yehoshua? The Gemara responds: Reish Lakish would claim that it is different here, in the case of a meal offering, as the verse states: “And the priest shall remove from the meal offering its memorial part, and shall make it smoke upon the altar” (Leviticus 2:9). Since it is clear that the verse is discussing a meal offering, the apparently superfluous mention of “the meal offering” teaches that unless the entire meal offering is intact, the priest shall not burn the handful.
וּמַאן דְּפָסֵל – שָׁאנֵי הָכָא, דְּאָמַר קְרָא: ״וְהֵרִים הַכֹּהֵן מִן הַמִּנְחָה אֶת אַזְכָּרָתָהּ וְהִקְטִיר הַמִּזְבֵּחָה״, ״הַמִּנְחָה״ – עַד דְּאִיתַהּ לְכוּלַּהּ מִנְחָה לֹא יַקְטִיר.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara continues: And the other amora, Rabbi Yoḥanan, how does he interpret that verse? Rabbi Yoḥanan claims that the phrase “from the meal offering” is referring to a meal offering that was already whole at the time of the removal of its handful, and the verse teaches that he shall burn its handful even though it is currently not whole.
וְאִידָּךְ, ״מִן הַמִּנְחָה״ – מִנְחָה שֶׁהָיְתָה כְּבָר שְׁלֵימָה בִּשְׁעַת קְמִיצָה יַקְטִיר, אַף עַל גַּב דְּהַשְׁתָּא אֵינָהּ שְׁלֵימָה.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rabbi Yoḥanan raised an objection to Reish Lakish from a baraita: If before the priest detached the arrangement of shewbread and the bowls of frankincense from upon the Table, the bread broke into pieces, the bread is unfit for consumption and the priest does not burn the frankincense contained in the bowls on account of it. And if the bread broke after the priest detached it, the bread is unfit but the priest burns the frankincense contained in the bowls on account of it. And Rabbi Elazar says: The baraita does not mean that the priest actually detached the shewbread. Rather, it means that once the time to detach it has arrived the frankincense contained in the bowls may be burned, even though he has not yet detached it. Just as the frankincense contained in the bowls is burned despite the broken shewbread, likewise, the handful of a meal offering should be burned even when the remainder is lacking.
אֵיתִיבֵיהּ רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן לְרֵישׁ לָקִישׁ: עַד שֶׁלֹּא פֵּרְקָהּ נִפְרַס הַלֶּחֶם – פָּסוּל, וְאֵין מַקְטִיר עָלָיו אֶת הַבָּזִיכִין, וְאִם מִשֶּׁפֵּרְקָהּ נִפְרַס לַחְמָהּ – הַלֶּחֶם פָּסוּל, וּמַקְטִיר עָלָיו אֶת הַבָּזִיכִין. וְאָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: לֹא פֵּרְקָהּ מַמָּשׁ, אֶלָּא כֵּיוָן שֶׁהִגִּיעַ זְמַנָּהּ לְפָרֵק, וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁלֹּא פִּירְקָהּ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Reish Lakish said to Rabbi Yoḥanan in response: In accordance with whose opinion is this? It is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer, who permits the burning of a handful even when the remainder has been entirely destroyed. And I hold in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehoshua. Rabbi Yoḥanan said to him: I am stating a complete halakha to you, i.e., a baraita of an unspecified opinion, and you say to me that this baraita is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer alone?
אֲמַר לֵיהּ: הָא מַנִּי? רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר הִיא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: אֲנָא אָמֵינָא לָךְ מִשְׁנָה שְׁלֵימָה, וְאָמְרַתְּ לִי אַתְּ רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר?
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rabbi Yoḥanan added: And furthermore, if the baraita is in accordance with the opinion of only Rabbi Eliezer, then why does the baraita mention specifically an instance where the bread broke? According to Rabbi Eliezer, even if the bread was burned or lost entirely, he deems the frankincense contained in the bowls fit for burning as well. The Gemara notes: Reish Lakish was silent and did not respond to the objections of Rabbi Yoḥanan.
אִי רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר, מַאי אִירְיָא נִפְרַס? אֲפִילּוּ שָׂרוּף וְאָבוּד נָמֵי מַכְשַׁר! אִישְׁתִּיק.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara asks: But why was Reish Lakish silent? Let him say to Rabbi Yoḥanan that one cannot cite a proof from a baraita that discusses the shewbread, a communal offering, because offerings of the community are different, since ritual impurity was permitted for them, i.e., communal offerings may be sacrificed even in a state of ritual impurity. Therefore, it was also permitted to sacrifice them when they are lacking. Rav Adda bar Ahava said: The fact that Reish Lakish did not respond in this manner is to say that a meal offering that is lacking in measure is considered like a blemished animal, not merely like an impure offering, and there is no instance of a blemished animal being permitted for use as an offering, even in the case of a communal offering.
וְאַמַּאי שְׁתֵק? לֵימָא לֵיהּ: צִבּוּר שָׁאנֵי, הוֹאִיל וְאִישְׁתְּרַי טוּמְאָה לְגַבַּיְיהוּ – אִישְׁתְּרַי נָמֵי חֲסֵרוֹת! אָמַר רַב אַדָּא בַּר אַהֲבָה: זֹאת אוֹמֶרֶת, הַחֶסְרוֹן כְּבַעַל מוּם דָּמֵי, וְאֵין בַּעַל מוּם בַּצִּבּוּר.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara relates that Rav Pappa was once sitting and saying this halakha, and he noted that Reish Lakish was silent and did not respond to Rabbi Yoḥanan’s objections by differentiating between a communal offering and that of an individual, and that Rav Adda bar Ahava derived from Reish Lakish’s silence that a lack in the measure of a meal offering is tantamount to a blemish. Rav Yosef bar Shemaya said to Rav Pappa: Are we not dealing with a disagreement that exists between Rabbi Yoḥanan and Reish Lakish even in the case of the omer meal offering, which is a communal offering? And even so, they disagree. Accordingly, Reish Lakish could not have responded to the objections of Rabbi Yoḥanan by distinguishing between a communal and an individual offering, and therefore one cannot derive from his silence that a meal offering lacking in its measure is like a blemished animal.
יָתֵיב רַב פָּפָּא וְקָאָמַר לְהָא שְׁמַעְתָּא, אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב יוֹסֵף בַּר שְׁמַעְיָה לְרַב פָּפָּא: מִי לָא עָסְקִינַן דְּרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן וְרֵישׁ לָקִישׁ בְּמִנְחַת הָעוֹמֶר דְּצִיבּוּר הִיא, וּפְלִיגִי?
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara further discusses the disagreement between Rabbi Yoḥanan and Reish Lakish. Rav Malkiyu says that one baraita taught: The verse states: “And he shall remove…of its fine flour” (Leviticus 2:2). This indicates that if the meal offering lacks any amount of its flour, it is disqualified and the priest may not remove a handful from it. Similarly, the term: “Of its oil” (Leviticus 2:2), teaches that if the meal offering lacks any amount of its oil, it is disqualified.
אָמַר רַב מַלְכִּיּוֹ, תָּנָא חֲדָא: ״מִסׇּלְתָּהּ״ – שֶׁאִם חָסְרָה כׇּל שֶׁהוּא פְּסוּלָה, ״מִשַּׁמְנָהּ״ – שֶׁאִם חָסְרָה כׇּל שֶׁהוּא פָּסוּל.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : And it is taught in another baraita that the verse that states: “But that which is left of the meal offering shall be Aaron’s and his sons’” (Leviticus 2:3), teaches that the remainder of the meal offering is given to the priests only if there was initially a whole meal offering, to the exclusion of a meal offering that was lacking, or whose handful was lacking, or from which the priest did not burn any frankincense. In such cases, the meal offering is disqualified and its remainder may not be consumed by the priests.
וְתַנְיָא אִידַּךְ: ״וְהַנּוֹתֶרֶת מִן הַמִּנְחָה״ – פְּרָט לַמִּנְחָה שֶׁחָסְרָה הִיא, וְשֶׁחָסַר קוּמְצָהּ, וְשֶׁלֹּא הִקְטִיר מִלְּבוֹנָתָהּ כְּלוּם.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rav Malkiyu asks: Why do I need two verses to disqualify meal offerings that are lacking? Is it not correct to say that one verse is referring to a meal offering that became lacking before the removal of the handful, i.e., that one may not refill it, and one verse is referring to the remainder of a meal offering that became lacking between the removal of the handful and its burning upon the altar, and it teaches that one may not burn a handful on account of such a remainder?
תְּרֵי קְרָאֵי בַּחֲסֵרוֹת לְמָה לִי? לָאו חַד לְמִנְחָה שֶׁחָסְרָה קוֹדֶם קְמִיצָה, וְחַד לְשִׁירַיִם שֶׁחָסְרוּ בֵּין קְמִיצָה לְהַקְטָרָה,
Menachot 9b
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