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Traité Kiddushin

9b

Étude de Kiddushin 9b

Étude de la Guémara 9b

Guémara
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : we require that the document of leaving, i.e., a bill of divorce, must be written specifically for her sake, so too, we require that the document of becoming betrothed be written for her sake. Or perhaps we juxtapose the different modes of becoming betrothed to each other and say: Just as we do not require that becoming betrothed with money must be carried out with coins minted for her sake, so too, we do not require that becoming betrothed with a document must be with a document written for her sake.
יְצִיאָה בָּעֵינַן לִשְׁמָהּ – אַף הֲוָיָיה בָּעֵינַן לִשְׁמָהּ, אוֹ דִלְמָא הֲוָיוֹת לַהֲדָדֵי מַקְּשִׁינַן, מָה הֲוָיָיה דְכֶסֶף לָא בָּעֵינַן לִשְׁמָהּ – אַף הֲוָיָיה דִשְׁטָר לָא בָּעֵינַן לִשְׁמָהּ?
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : After he raised the dilemma, Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish then resolved it. We juxtapose becoming betrothed to leaving a marriage, as the verse states: “And she departs out of his house, and goes and becomes” (Deuteronomy 24:2). This shows that the halakhot of a betrothal document are derived from those of a bill of divorce, and therefore a document of betrothal must also be written for her sake.
בָּתַר דְּבַעְיָא הֲדַר פַּשְׁטַהּ: הֲוָיָיה לִיצִיאָה מַקְּשִׁינַן, דְּאָמַר קְרָא ״וְיָצְאָה״ ״וְהָיְתָה״.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : It was stated that amora’im disagreed with regard to the following issue: If a man wrote a document of betrothal for her sake but without her consent, i.e., she did not know at the time that they were writing it but accepted it afterward, Rava and Ravina say: She is betrothed. Rav Pappa and Rav Sherevya say: She is not betrothed. Rav Pappa said: I will say their reason and I will say my reason. I will state their reason, as it is written: “And she departs out of his house, and goes and becomes,” by which the verse juxtaposes becoming betrothed to leaving a marriage. Just as a bill of divorce, written for leaving a marriage must be written for her own sake but can be written without her consent, so too, a document written for becoming betrothed must be written for her own sake and can even be without her consent.
אִיתְּמַר: כְּתָבוֹ לִשְׁמָהּ, וְשֶׁלֹּא מִדַּעְתָּהּ – רָבָא וְרָבִינָא אָמְרִי: מְקוּדֶּשֶׁת. רַב פָּפָּא וְרַב שֵׁרֵבְיָא אָמְרִי: אֵינָהּ מְקוּדֶּשֶׁת. אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא: אֵימָא טַעְמָא דִידְהוּ וְאֵימָא טַעְמָא דִידִי. אֵימָא טַעְמָא דִידְהוּ – דִּכְתִיב: ״וְיָצְאָה״ ״וְהָיְתָה״ – מַקִּישׁ הֲוָיָיה לִיצִיאָה, מָה יְצִיאָה לִשְׁמָהּ וְשֶׁלֹּא מִדַּעְתָּהּ, אַף הֲוָיָיה נָמֵי לִשְׁמָהּ וְשֶׁלֹּא מִדַּעְתָּהּ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : And I will say my reason: The verse says: “And she departs out of his house, and goes and becomes.” The verse juxtaposes becoming betrothed to leaving a marriage. Just as with regard to a bill of divorce, written for leaving a marriage, we require the consent of the one transferring ownership, i.e., the man, as he divorces and transfers authority of the woman to herself, so too, with regard to a document written for becoming betrothed, we require the consent of the one transferring ownership, which in this case is the woman, who must agree to the marriage.
וְאֵימָא טַעְמָא דִידִי: ״וְיָצְאָה״ ״וְהָיְתָה״ – מַקִּישׁ הֲוָיָיה לִיצִיאָה, מָה יְצִיאָה בָּעֵינַן דַּעַת מַקְנֶה, אַף הֲוָיָיה בָּעֵינַן דַּעַת מַקְנֶה.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara raises an objection from a mishna (Bava Batra 167b) against the opinion that she is betrothed if the document was written without her consent. One writes documents of betrothal and marriage only with the consent of both the man and woman. What, is the mishna not referring to actual documents of betrothal and marriage, which indicates that the document must be written with the woman’s consent? The Gemara rejects this proof: No, this is referring to documents of stipulation, which contain the details of the dowry. And this statement is in accordance with that which Rav Giddel says that Rav says.
מֵיתִיבִי: אֵין כּוֹתְבִין שְׁטָרֵי אֵירוּסִין וְנִשּׂוּאִין אֶלָּא מִדַּעַת שְׁנֵיהֶן. מַאי לָאו שְׁטָרֵי אֵירוּסִין וְנִשּׂוּאִין מַמָּשׁ! לָא, שְׁטָרֵי פְּסִיקָתָא. וְכִדְרַב גִּידֵּל אָמַר רַב,
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : As Rav Giddel says that Rav says: If the father of one member of the couple says to the father of the other: How much are you giving to your son? And he answers: Such and such, and adds: How much are you giving to your daughter? And the other responds: Such and such, then if they, the couple, subsequently arose and became betrothed, they acquire everything that was promised. These are the matters that are acquired through speech, and they do not require an act of acquisition. The documents of betrothal mentioned here that require the woman’s consent are those which contain this type of monetary obligation, not actual documents of betrothal.
דְּאָמַר רַב גִּידֵּל אָמַר רַב: ״כַּמָּה אַתָּה נוֹתֵן לְבִנְךָ״? – ״כָּךְ וְכָךְ״, ״לְבִתְּךָ״? – ״כָּךְ וְכָךְ״, עָמְדוּ וְקִדְּשׁוּ – קָנוּ, הֵן הֵן הַדְּבָרִים הַנִּקְנִים בַּאֲמִירָה.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : § The mishna teaches that a woman can be betrothed through sexual intercourse. The Gemara asks: From where do we derive this? Rabbi Abbahu said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said that the verse states: “If a man be found lying with a married woman [beulat ba’al]” (Deuteronomy 22:22). This teaches that he becomes her husband [ba’al] by means of sexual intercourse [be’ila]. Rabbi Zeira said to Rabbi Abbahu, and some say it was Reish Lakish who said this to Rabbi Yoḥanan: Is this other proof, taught by Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, unacceptable: “When a man takes a woman and engages in sexual intercourse with her” (Deuteronomy 24:1)? This verse teaches that she can be acquired through intercourse.
וּבְבִיאָה. מְנָא לַן? אָמַר רַבִּי אֲבָהוּ אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: דְּאָמַר קְרָא ״בְּעֻלַת בַּעַל״ – מְלַמֵּד שֶׁנַּעֲשֶׂה לָהּ בַּעַל עַל יְדֵי בְעִילָה. אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַבִּי זֵירָא לְרַבִּי אֲבָהוּ וְאָמְרִי לַהּ רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ לְרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: כְּעוּרָה זוֹ שֶׁשָּׁנָה רַבִּי ״וּבְעָלָהּ״ – מְלַמֵּד שֶׁנִּקְנֵית בְּבִיאָה?
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara answers that the verse cited by Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi is insufficient proof that a woman can be betrothed via intercourse, as, if this halakha were derived only from there, I would say that she is not considered his wife unless he first betroths her through money, indicated by the phrase “takes a woman,” and then engages in intercourse with her. This is the only valid mode of betrothal, and intercourse alone is not enough. Therefore, the verse states “a married woman [beulat ba’al]” and teaches us that intercourse by itself is a valid means of betrothal.
אִי מֵהָתָם, הֲוָה אָמֵינָא עַד דִּמְקַדֵּשׁ וַהֲדַר בָּעֵיל, קָא מַשְׁמַע לַן.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rabbi Abba bar Memel objects to this: The above suggestion, that both money and sexual intercourse are required for betrothal, cannot be the correct interpretation of the verse: “When a man takes a woman and engages in sexual intercourse with her.” This is because, if it is so, that a woman can be acquired only through both betrothal money and intercourse, the case of one who engages in intercourse with a betrothed young woman, concerning which the Merciful One states in the Torah that he is punished by stoning (see Deuteronomy 22:23–24), how can you find a case where he is liable to be punished in this manner?
מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רַבִּי אַבָּא בַּר מֶמֶל: אִם כֵּן, נַעֲרָה הַמְאוֹרָסָה, דְּאָמַר רַחֲמָנָא בִּסְקִילָה, הֵיכִי מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ?
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Rabbi Abba bar Memel elaborates: If this is referring to a case where he betrothed her with money and then engaged in sexual intercourse with her, she is a non-virgin, and the punishment of stoning applies only to one who engages in intercourse with a betrothed young virgin. If it is referring to a case where he betrothed her with money and did not engage in intercourse with her, this is nothing, as the betrothal has not been completed. The Rabbis said before Abaye: You find it in a case where he betrothed her with money and then the betrothed man engaged in intercourse with her in an atypical manner, i.e., anal intercourse. Despite the fact that she is still a virgin, the betrothal has taken effect by means of this type of sexual intercourse.
אִי דְּאקַדֵּישׁ וַהֲדַר בְּעֵיל בְּעוּלָה הִיא, אִי דְּאקַדֵּישׁ וְלָא בְּעֵיל לָאו כְּלוּם הוּא! אַמְרוּהָ רַבָּנַן קַמֵּיהּ דְּאַבָּיֵי: מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ, כְּגוֹן שֶׁבָּא עָלֶיהָ אָרוּס שֶׁלֹּא כְּדַרְכָּהּ.
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : Abaye said to those Sages: The verse cannot be explained in that manner, as Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi and the Rabbis disagree only with regard to another man, i.e., whether a woman is considered to be a virgin after engaging in anal intercourse with another man. But with regard to her husband, everyone agrees that if he engages in intercourse in an atypical manner with her he has rendered her a non-virgin. If so, she is no longer considered a virgin with regard to the halakha of a betrothed young woman.
אֲמַר לְהוּ אַבָּיֵי: עַד כָּאן לָא פְּלִיגִי רַבִּי וְרַבָּנַן אֶלָּא בְּאַחֵר, אֲבָל בַּעַל – דִּבְרֵי הַכֹּל אִם בָּא עָלֶיהָ שֶׁלֹּא כְּדַרְכָּהּ – עֲשָׂאָהּ בְּעוּלָה!
Traduction française en préparation — version anglaise (Steinsaltz) : The Gemara clarifies: What is the dispute to which Abaye refers? As it is taught in a baraita (Tosefta, Sanhedrin 10:4): If ten men engaged in sexual intercourse with a betrothed young woman, and she is still a virgin, as they engaged in anal intercourse with her, they are all punished by stoning. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi says: I say that the first one is punished by stoning, as he engaged in intercourse with a virgin young woman, but all the others are punished by strangulation. Once the first man engages in intercourse with her she is no longer considered a virgin, even if he engaged in anal intercourse with her.
מַאי הִיא? דְּתַנְיָא: בָּאוּ עָלֶיהָ עֲשָׂרָה אֲנָשִׁים, וַעֲדַיִין הִיא בְּתוּלָה – כּוּלָּן בִּסְקִילָה. רַבִּי אוֹמֵר, אוֹמֵר אֲנִי: הָרִאשׁוֹן בִּסְקִילָה, וְכוּלָּן בְּחֶנֶק.
Kiddushin 9b
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